Curse

acidic · Sep 02, 2007, 06:04 PM // 18:04

zinger is a role model

The Herbalizer · Sep 02, 2007, 08:07 PM // 20:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

Actually, it does matter. That's my BIG problem with their "4 million copies sold" figure. So my copy of NF, Phrophecies, and Factions is 3 copies.
It massively inflates the number of people who actually play this game. The size of the player community has a huge impact on the ability of the game (how easy it is to find a group for a specific task, etc).

When WoW says they've sold 10 million copies, that actually means 10 million copies. When GW says 4 million, they actually mean like 1.5-2 million.

What that means is of that ~1.5-2 million repeat customers are going to buy GW2, not 4 million. Which means in the future when a.net switches to an all campaign + expansion buisness model, it will hurt sales figures.

That's why that matters, because it will affect sales figures in the future.

PS LoneSamari, yeah Tabula Rasa could topple GW. I know I'm buying it. We'll have to wait and see.

PPS And give Zinger a break. He's not actually trolling now. Everybody is just flaming him because they don't like to hear the voice of a pessimist/realist.

I believe WoW has 8 million active paying customers. By active it means people still paying subscription and online within one month.

On the first day of release WoW TBC sold like 3 million copies or something.

Now GW has sold 4 million copies. How many of those copies are still active I would say a hell of a lot less.

On numbers alone WoW > GW

I Mean I · Sep 02, 2007, 08:21 PM // 20:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forjo

Worry has nothing to do with it. My decision whether to purchase GW:EN is directly based on what linkage it provides to Guild Wars 2. Most of the other major features don't really mean much to me:

4 new regions to explore, including the continent-sprawling Depths
This is cool, but I have MUCH more area to explore in what I've moved to (LotRO)

18 multi-level dungeons rife with traps, puzzles, secret passages, and dangerous foes
My personal play preferences are for beautiful expansive regions. Dungeon-crawl does not appeal to me.

150 new skills to unlock and use
ANet likes aggregate numbers. It's only 15 per character when you break it down, and with some locked to reputation grind?

10 new Heroes to command from races old and new, including the fierce Norn, the magical Asura, and even a few surprises
Gwen herself is not much of a surprise anymore. And since heroes actually DO the same thing with the same skills, this is just cosmetic.

Your own personalized Hall of Monuments to preserve your achievements, trophies, and titles across all Guild Wars games, allowing descendants to reap the benefits of your character's fame in Guild Wars 2
I'm not a grinder, so this doesn't appear to be useful to me at the moment.

40 new armor sets, including rare, stand-alone pieces
Only 4 per profession. Again, aggregate numbers. Big deal.

The only thing that would compel me to purchase this would be a great story and great storytelling. And if reviews reveal this to be the case, I may at some point purchase GW:EN.

But with all of the things that have happened in the last 6 months to sour my opinion of Guild Wars (NO trade improvements, insane nerfs like armor stacking, threatening players instead of providing real solutions, Anet officials less than professional handling of player unrest in the forums, and the focus on grinding brought about by hard mode and all the new titles), I just doubt it'll be enough.

Still, I come here waiting to read the message that sways me and gives me that "must buy" sensation. But alas, nothing yet.

-Forjo

Maybe then this game is not for you.

Seriously...People complaining that guild wars has much grind ?
The only grind you need to do is to get 15k armor or titles which both are not neccassary to complete the game.
Just go see some other free MMO like rappelz,there's MUCH more grind than gw.

Ork Pride · Sep 03, 2007, 01:41 AM // 01:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Herbalizer

I believe WoW has 8 million active paying customers. By active it means people still paying subscription and online within one month.

On the first day of release WoW TBC sold like 3 million copies or something.

Now GW has sold 4 million copies. How many of those copies are still active I would say a hell of a lot less.

On numbers alone WoW > GW

It's actually 9 million active paying customers. :P

haggus71 · Sep 03, 2007, 02:27 AM // 02:27

First off, you will be hard pressed to compare GW's storyline to a storyline from a novel voted one of readers' top 100 of ALL TIME(look it up). Not gonna happen.

As we have seen with the game release, there is grind in EotN. You could get Kurzick or Luxon armor just for having most of your faction in that group. Hell, spend a few sessions in Ft Aspenwood with a good Mesmer/Necro build, and you can have the Friend of the Luxons/Kurzicks title in no-time. You make it to certain stages in Nightfall and you can get Vabbi, Ancient, or Primeval armors. If you like the way Norn armor looks, too bad. You HAVE to grind the 56k points just to have access to the armor crafter. Playing through the whole story thread five times will not get you that. Of course, the game just came out. If enough people are raising a ruckus, they may change that. After all, the game has only been out a weekend.

I do like what Jeff had to say about the separation of PvP and PvE. The biggest whine and bitch from everyone(and I've seen many in this thread do so, including me) is the fact that when they nerf a skill in pvp it makes it useless in pve. Well guess what? They are listening, and are going to do what everyone supposedly wanted, which is to have one world not affect what happens in the other. So quit crying about the separation, f'ing Nancys. You asked for it, so suck it up. It will allow for true fair combat based solely on player skill/experience in the pvp world, since everyone will have access to all the same skills (according to Jeff Strain), while all the c-space crowd can SS/SF to their heart's content in the pve world. And if you are feeling froggy, you can go into the world vs world arena and duke it out. Sounds like an immense AB/Ft Aspenwood with armies of players. "Naruto sin squad! SF Eles! Attack!"

Forjo · Sep 03, 2007, 03:47 PM // 15:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Mean I

Maybe then this game is not for you.

Seriously...People complaining that guild wars has much grind ?
The only grind you need to do is to get 15k armor or titles which both are not neccassary to complete the game.
Just go see some other free MMO like rappelz,there's MUCH more grind than gw.

Thus far, sadly, it isn't. I want it to be as I've enjoyed the first three campaigns so much. But I just feel so constrained every time I load it up. There are so many things I can do in LotRO that are impossible in Guild Wars.

I'm starting to see some posts about how cool the quests and story are, so maybe all is not lost. But considering that we have a baby on the way and really don't have enough time as it is, I think the best choice will be for me to just focus on one game.

Anyway, thanks for your post, and I hope you enjoy GW:EN. Maybe I'll post a few more times here, but this will probably be it for awhile.

Good luck to all of you, and if you try LotRO (there's a 7-day free trial available), look for me on the Arkenstone server.

-Forjo

=HT=Ingram · Sep 04, 2007, 06:45 AM // 06:45

As I understand it... there is a possibility at No level cap for this reason... the level will be representative of the Exp of the character. OK great. but as to the stats. nothing much will change beyond lev 20. or maybe 30 which has been the speculation of the stat increase...

so say you reach lev 30 and have
(below is just a example)
250 attrib points to spend,
and 500 health base,
and 50 energy
ability to get max armor class 100

{note that if you use a companion of some kind, the extra 50 attrib stats would get distributed towards that pet or champion.}

OK great so you level up to lev 50... but your stats per say remain the same... You may get more storage or something as you level higher, or maybe some new armor skins available to you (expected). Something like that, but for all intents and purposes your base abilities are no different from any other lev 30. but being a lev 50 shows you are more experienced in the game. kinda like Rank is suppose too; (I said suppose too folks don't freak out on me); show you are more experienced in HoH...

Essentially as I understand it GW2 will not be a WoW grind clone... I highly doubt that. because that will go too far from the people that seem to be a vast majority of players today. the casual player that does not want to be REQUIRED to grind for countless hours to achieve a basic game element. IE Missions, and Quest acquisition.

As we stand here now yes there is some required grind for some things. yes... the titles did that... and I expect similar titles will continue to do that. HOWEVER, most titles are not required at all. and I fully expect that to remain true. Sure you may get something for achieving them, but it does not mean its impossible to play out the game to completion without them.

I think this is a good vision for GW2. Making PvE have somewhat less restriction and allowing more advancement without regard to balance issues to PvP, but not making it a grind fest is a great and wondrous thing to strive for PvE. BUT allowing a separate but no less equal PvP experience with an UAS option that will be very balanced and structure solely for PvP alone. Bringing the game back to the core PvP values of the original charter for GuildWars. Its not about grind. its about skill.

Tijger · Sep 04, 2007, 07:57 AM // 07:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

Actually, it does matter. That's my BIG problem with their "4 million copies sold" figure. So my copy of NF, Phrophecies, and Factions is 3 copies.
It massively inflates the number of people who actually play this game. The size of the player community has a huge impact on the ability of the game (how easy it is to find a group for a specific task, etc).

When WoW says they've sold 10 million copies, that actually means 10 million copies. When GW says 4 million, they actually mean like 1.5-2 million.

What that means is of that ~1.5-2 million repeat customers are going to buy GW2, not 4 million. Which means in the future when a.net switches to an all campaign + expansion buisness model, it will hurt sales figures.

That's why that matters, because it will affect sales figures in the future.

PS LoneSamari, yeah Tabula Rasa could topple GW. I know I'm buying it. We'll have to wait and see.

PPS And give Zinger a break. He's not actually trolling now. Everybody is just flaming him because they don't like to hear the voice of a pessimist/realist.

You're totally missing the point, NOBODY has given any number of actual players, not Arenanet, not NCSoft so whether 1, 2 or 3 million people play GW is neither known nor relevant in this context. There cannot BE any inflation if there are no numbers given, the business model for GW does not revolve around player numbers, why is that so hard to understand?

Sales figures in the future will be decided by many more factors then the number of players of GW, Arenanet has now garnered interest from the gaming press, its also now built a history of making games that have done well both critically and financially, GW2 will decide if they can turn it into a franchise.

PS: Tabula Rasa is an MMO FPS, never even heard of the other one but again, not very relevant to GW2 or GW itself, dont know LoneSamari but I do know Tabula Rasa is a subscription game.

PPS: Zinger was invited to actually discuss points and has been missing in action since then.

Gigashadow · Sep 04, 2007, 07:58 AM // 07:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

/sigh. I don't try to troll, and if I apoligize if it comes out that way. But the posters here are narrow-minded and think Guild Wars is the best game EVER, without being open to other game and their influences on Guild Wars itself, and cannot accept the reality that other games do indeed have an effect.

It is possible (and consistent) to believe that guild wars is the best game ever, while also acknowledging that it has borrowed from other games, and that other games due to come out soon may be better. I think GW's innovations of a huge skillset with 8 skills on your bar, non-gear dependent PvP, and lack of tedium (insta-travel, no repair bills, potions, buffs that have to be cast all the time and cost a third of your mana), are very commendable.

I've spent a lot of time in both GW and WoW (separately; I only have time for one or the other, although my characters are decked out in both games), and although I enjoyed my time in both, I have fonder memories of GW overall.

Out of the games coming out, I am really looking forward to WAR, even though it really isn't especially innovative.

I don't know enough about GW2, although I'm hoping they take the best parts of GW and the best parts of WAR/WoW/typical mmorpg and put them together.

The Herbalizer · Sep 04, 2007, 10:08 AM // 10:08

HT Ingram

You mention how the vast majority of players do not want grind and therefore GW2 being similar to WoW would not be a good idea. Well, how come WoW has 9 million ACTIVE players while GW has only 4 million sales? It seems WoW is more popular and the casual players are in fact in the minority.

zakaria · Sep 04, 2007, 10:28 AM // 10:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Herbalizer

HT Ingram

You mention how the vast majority of players do not want grind and therefore GW2 being similar to WoW would not be a good idea. Well, how come WoW has 9 million ACTIVE players while GW has only 4 million sales? It seems WoW is more popular and the casual players are in fact in the minority.

BINGO!
The truth that most of GW fanbase still deny it or can't understand it...

Kali Magdalene · Sep 04, 2007, 10:46 AM // 10:46

I think it's more that everyone sees their preferences as the fanbase's preferences, but really...

* We have PVE players who play through a campaign and stop
* We have PVE players who explore
* We have PVE players who farm for gold to get high-end armor and rare weapon skins + perfect mods
* We have PVE players who grind titles

And of course we have PVP players, who have their own preferences and priorities.

It looks to me like in GW2 they're trying to offer something for everyone, not turn it into some farming-crazy version of WoW.

Thom · Sep 04, 2007, 12:03 PM // 12:03

Why do we want to compare Guild Wars to World of Warcraft? The communities have very different gaming expectations. I put down guild wars for 5 months to focus on work and now I picked it up for some causal PvE. If I get loads of free time I can get rid of some rust and start PvPing regularly again. The game is fun, sophisticated and enduring. You can play it as a competitive PvP game, a casual PvE game, a casual PvP game or a grind game. While the depth is arguably in the competitive PvP, there are some pretty hardcore dungeons even before GW:EN. The game plays equally well as a team game, a solo game and or partnered with a friend. Mini-games are fun and are often designed to build player skill.

Guild Wars has a lot to offer, but it isn't the top hardcore grind game. Thats ok. With ~$160 million+ in sales (4 mil*$40) over 2.5 years (+3 years development), A-net can consider their product a success. Most MMOs target niche markets since markets are saturated. The fact that Anet has done this well targeting casual gamers, pure pvpers and cheap people is a success. Magic the gathering will never be texas holdem', but they continue to make Magic. Likewise, the market for people who want a casual but well designed online RPG will not go away. Guild Wars relies on the competitive PvPers to provide crediblity to its game design, so the community will probably remain strong.

WoW's brain numbing grind will always need a smarter faster cousin. I think guild wars 2 is the natural canidate to replace guild wars in that role.

=HT=Ingram · Sep 04, 2007, 12:30 PM // 12:30

This is a Guildwars Fan site; I could give a flying fig for WoW and what anyone thinks of it and what it is better then GW or GW2 because they want to grind up to some uber level to make fun of people lower then them and stalk them and rob from them at every opportunity. or worse yet kill them for their siege weapons that they earned and leave them laying there, while some high level idiot loots your wares.

Sorry I don't feel like having to Pay a subscription to be treated like a F_ing Ass because I can't spend every waking moment for a month in a game to grind just so I can complete it. And if I dare walk away from the game for something else not only do I have to keep up my extortion fees for the game I am left so far behind I will have no choice but to find new people to play with again...

this will Never be the case in a GW game. They learned from their mistakes there blizzard and made a far superior game at arenanet. If anything part of the reason for the sales WoW , being so grind heavy that those in it have little to no option but to play that and ONLY that game just so they can do a siege here or there on occasion...

So if someone LOVES WoW so much, then go play it. facts are facts. I play GW, and guess what? I'll have more money in my pocket at the end of the month and am much happier for it. And all the while being able to enjoy more and more games and REAL LIFE, with less worry about the dredging grind requirements that are NOT REQUIRED in a GW title in order to complete it.

Mordakai · Sep 04, 2007, 12:38 PM // 12:38

You can't fairly compare Guild Wars with Tabula Rosa, Guild Wars, LoTR, Everquest, Eve, or any other game with a monthly fee.

All these games should be better because they make more money than Guild Wars. Hell, WoW makes 9 million X $15 a MONTH.

No, Guild Wars is not perfect. Neither will GW2 be perfect. WoW is not perfect, and neither will be Tabula Rosa.

But, as long as Jeff Strain keeps trying new things and seeing what works and what doesn't work, I have high hopes for GW2. And, worse case scenario, it costs me money one time, then I can play it until the servers shut down....

Zakarr · Sep 04, 2007, 12:39 PM // 12:39

I have played WoW 10 months, have level 70 characters, epic flying mounts, epic gears, lots of gold. This all can be done with zero skill. Consume tons of time and repeat same things over and over again. Before that I played Guild Wars from the release and stopped when Nightfall came.

Raids require memorizing certain patterns bosses do. When each member from the party understand these patterns and learn to behave correctly when these happen, everything will be fine. You need more power from your gear than from your brains. Powerful gear requires time. Nothing else.

The thing what WoW community will not accept is that they gain satisfaction by owning people and insulting others because of their better gear and unfair situations rather than faster brain activity and adaption. Especially raiding people who are in end-game zone, are really annoying, selfish people who think they are superior compared to others. Now I have to wonder, what kind of people really play WoW and like it so much?

Although I have to admit that I really enjoy playing Rogue and killing people through stealth and they never can revenge me if I kill them first. It is really strange feeling that I actually enjoy ruining others playing. Still, I have to say that getting gear advantage over others seems to be the thing what people love in WoW. The game itself is so simple and require nothing more than time, there can't be any other reason. It is a bit same thing that in real life "I have better car", "I have more money", "I have prettier wife/girlfriend", etc.

Guild Wars is more equal with character abilities and what one can reach. Unfortunately it is not so popular. You know what people want. They want competition and super powers. If they are too dumb for it, they can at least compensate it with better gear and items. You can't do that in GW and it probably just piss off so many people.

The Herbalizer · Sep 04, 2007, 02:42 PM // 14:42

Quote:

Essentially as I understand it GW2 will not be a WoW grind clone... I highly doubt that. because that will go too far from the people that seem to be a vast majority of players today. the casual player that does not want to be REQUIRED to grind for countless hours to achieve a basic game element. IE Missions, and Quest acquisition.

Woah Ht Ingram.

No need to totally freak out. You stated something which I proved wrong. You stated the vast majority of players want a casual MMORPG when in fact the vast majority of players are playing MMORPGs which required considerable time devoted to them when in fact very few people play GW.

If GW is so superior to WoW then why does WoW absolutely anihilate GW in sales figures.

And its not just WoW.

Lineage 2 has 14 million sales and I have seen figures of 1-4 million subscribers.

Runescape 5 million active players and 1 million paying subscribers.

Maplestory 50 million users, 3 million active players.

An interesting website regarding sales and users: -
http://mmogchart.com/

If Guild Wars' forumla is so great then why does it only have 4 million sales? If there is such a huge demand for non grind, casual games then why does it have only 4 million sales?

The numbers speak for themselves.

You can have the most amazing product ever but if it doesnt sell as well as its competitors then it is not more successful than they are.

WoW TBC sold nearly 3 million copies I believe it was in the first day alone. Thats nearly as much as GW has sold ever.

You can live in your own little world where GW is the best and most successful MMORPG but when you compare to WoW the numbers say otherwise.

O wow £8 a month for a WoW subscription. Thats what, £2 per week. I could pick up that amount off of the floor per week just going about my daily life. It is such a miniscule amount of money the argument on fees is pretty much void. A child could even afford it, sell a few old toys which they no longer use or something.

If anything Blizzard have the better format because they have achived more active users than GW will ever have. Businesses are meant to make money and the most successful business is the one which makes the most. Which is Blizzard not Anet.

And yah I love WoW. Hence why I am reactivating my account to power trade only on. Ill still play GW as its an okay game.

I cant say ive known any players who quit WoW to play GW. But I know dozens and dozens of GW players quiting to play WoW.

I am stating facts which GW fan boys cant seem to understand. WoW has higher sales and more active players than GW. Therefore WoW is the more successful game as it has achieved those sales and active players. Therefore the majority of players prefer grind based games to casual games. If players preferred casual games over grind based games GW would have higher sales. Casual players are in the minority. Cold hard facts.

Bryant Again · Sep 04, 2007, 02:49 PM // 14:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zakarr

The thing what WoW community will not accept is that they gain satisfaction by owning people and insulting others because of their better gear and unfair situations rather than faster brain activity and adaption. Especially raiding people who are in end-game zone, are really annoying, selfish people who think they are superior compared to others.

Guild Wars also has the same kind of "like to own people" mentality, what with the highend armor, /rank, max titles and superdupergold weapons. It is a PvP game, after all.

Also, all the people that I know of get good gear so they can progress through the game, not to be above others. To make such a swooping generalization is pretty strange.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zakarr

Still, I have to say that getting gear advantage over others seems to be the thing what people love in WoW.

Maybe they actually just like getting cool gear period, or maybe they like to experience the content, or like to brave and kill big monsters, etc. etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Herbalizer

O wow £8 a month for a WoW subscription. Thats what, £2 per week. I could pick up that amount off of the floor per week just going about my daily life. It is such a miniscule amount of money the argument on fees is pretty much void. A child could even afford it, sell a few old toys which they no longer use or something.

In the US it's $15 a month, which is just 50 cents a day. That's...not a whole lot.

TreeDude · Sep 04, 2007, 03:06 PM // 15:06

Sounds to me like PvE will have a higher cap than PvP. I think PvP will still be that you make a max lvl character and unlock skills though PvE. I hope that is how it will be. The huge war sounds like fun.

Shakkara · Sep 04, 2007, 03:34 PM // 15:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Herbalizer

I cant say ive known any players who quit WoW to play GW. But I know dozens and dozens of GW players quiting to play WoW.

I quit WoW and picked up guildwars again.

I left behind a level 60 character with Marshal rank under the old system with 100 days played in little less then one year real time. The system where there could only be one grand marshal per server. I was the #4 or so PVP player of the server.

WoW has no depth and no skill. There's only one choice. The class you play. The rest is linear progression based on items, and items require time, not skill. Duels depend on items and class, not skill. During my time on WoW, a warrior could NEVER beat any other class one on one due to Armor not reducing spell damage or resisting kiting effects, so a warrior could never reach a caster or hurt a rogue or ranger due to being slowed/stunned/polymorphed/feared/deathcoiled/scattershotted and you name it. That's flawed game design. They probably fixed it, but still, combat is just pushing your buttons in a predetermined sequence based on the enemies you're facing. There's nothing you can change about your character, as there's always one talent build that's the most effective for the task and there hardly is room for experimentation. The rest is just a grind for items to grind for better items to grind for even more items.